I’m reposting this due to the recent incident in Austin where everyone is in an uproar over the arrest of a female jogger.
Unfortunately in this case, the arrest may be proper. If the officer was writing tickets for “jaywalking,” then she was legally “arrested” to be released on a citation (similar to an ROR). As she was technically under arrest, she would have to provide ID information, and if she refused could be charged with Failure to ID.
The Texas Failure to Identify law is fairly simple. Why don’t police get it? It states:
- (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
- (b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
- (1) lawfully arrested the person;
- (2) lawfully detained the person; or
- (3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
- (c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:
- (1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or
- (2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed…
View original post 733 more words
ExCop-Lawyer 
Feb 22, 2014 @ 08:34:26
It is not clear to me that she was under arrest at the time of her refusal to id. She was definitely under arrest when they got her to the squad, but she did id at that point. Is there any evidence that they actually attempted to write a jaywalking citation before dragging her to the police car?
The chief said that he would have thrown on a resisting charge. I am not sure why he is acting like it is too late for the popos to do that.
Feb 22, 2014 @ 09:50:16
The Daily Texan, the student newspaper, said that she was being cited for “Pedestrian Disregarding Traffic Control Device” (crossing against a do not walk signal). At that point she refused to ID and went limp. She was arrested at that point.
It appears to be a good arrest.
Feb 22, 2014 @ 17:43:24
It does not appear that The Daily Texan talked to the arrestee or her lawyer. I am reserving judgement on such issues as whether she actually jaywalked, and whether she was told that she was being cited for jaywalking BEFORE the demand for her id was made.
I don’t know why the Daily Texan would run a story like that without getting the arrestee’s side of it (or at least outlining attempts to contact her).
As alwyers, we should not put a lot of creedence in a media account like that one.
Feb 23, 2014 @ 08:24:46
Same happened to me but I was protesting on a median in-between rail lines (toy train). Cop did not witness the crime and a traffic lawyer checked this location to see if we crossed at an “intersection”. Since we believe that: a) cop was not a witness b) it would qualify as an intersection it would thereby eliminate probable cause as medians are fair game (no laws in Houston) then we can press our case under 1983. Other charges were fail to ID on demand & disobey officer as I refused to sit on curb.Got video. Also Atwater SCOTUS case gave us this police state BYW…
Feb 25, 2014 @ 09:45:41
ECLS : From a policeman’s POV, what purpose is served in arresting someone for failure to ID if no crime has been committed? Does the city attorney get mad when the charges have to be dropped?
Feb 26, 2014 @ 07:01:33
Primarily to stop people from lying to the police when they give a false name, and to stop obstructionism when an arrested person refuses to identify themselves.
You would have to ask a city attorney, but I would doubt that they get mad or upset.
Feb 26, 2014 @ 11:36:28
I should of asked my question differently. I’ll set up the circumstance better. A policeman approaches you, then demands ID. You simply say no. He then threatens you with arrest. As politely as you can, you still simply say no and do not escalate anything. On his own, the cop arrests you and tells you it is for failure to ID. Off you go. After spending the night in jail, no charges are filed and you are released. Similar to the incident in Bell County you featured in early 2013 about the guy asking about the handgun sign at city hall. What was the purpose of the arrest from the policemans POV if the charges have to be dropped. What has been accomplished? Is it just a pissing contest? I’m thinking if this law is so explcit and easy to understand, what is the purpose of an ID arrest followed by no charges?
Feb 26, 2014 @ 22:12:14
It is a clear false arrest under the circumstances you describe, and it is because the departments have failed to properly train their officers. The officers actually believe that they can make an arrest in these cases, and are shocked when the DAs drop charges.
Feb 27, 2014 @ 22:18:00
Yes a pissing contest. All cops the world over are obsessed with a bizarre compulsion to stare at letters and numbers. Marx would probably identify this with late-stage capitalist degeneracy.
This goes hand in hand with the general idiocracy. Cops are people just like everyone else, with all the same wrong assumptions and fallacies.
Btw a citation is not an arrest, its a means in lieu of arrest. We aren’t arrested until facing the booking officer. Now when’s the last time anyone heard “you’re under Arrest, state your identification”. Never happens. They just want us to stand on one leg and squirm, entrap “false” information and generally do anything other than conduct an investigation.
“when in doubt, make it a traffic stop” they have no idea how to do anything else. Around my way they let go some druggie burglars caught in the act because “they had ID” and “it came back clear”. Good one Coppers! At least they weren’t driving while suspended.
Feb 28, 2014 @ 00:03:42
You need to be more coherent.
A citation is not an arrest. You have already been arrested and are being released by citation in lieu of being taken before a magistrate. See Tex. Crim. Proc. Code Ann. art. 14.06 (Vernon).
Also, if you intend to just run down police, we’re not going to do that here.
Feb 28, 2014 @ 16:47:12
The popular misconstruct of “identification” is incoherent. An “ID” is not a “mini-me” in handy format. The card links the holder BY physical description and likeness to a CORRESPONDING RECORD. Without that objective point of reference there is no answer to “whats your name/birthday/address”. These items are a repetition from an established relationship. There is no such thing as a one-party identification. There must be an object and a subject, just like a coherent grammatic statement.
[remainder of incoherent sovereign rant deleted – you are on moderation]
Feb 26, 2014 @ 13:12:10
Tom,
I can’t see how they can legally pull off a fail to ID charge with nothing to lean on. In my own case I reviewed METRO arrest records for a 9 month range and pulled out arrests where the probable cause was flimsy.I found one that was unbolstered like you describe but it will boil down to whether they wish to litigate or not. Generally, fail to ID should have one or other charges thrown on to it. The gal in Austin was arrested over the fail to follow signal law (probable cause) when her secondary action in not identifying herself and some resistance led the cop to handcuff her. In my own case I started questing the cop and refused to sit as ordered…then got arrested.
Feb 26, 2014 @ 14:49:03
Thanks for the reply. I used the Bell County example because ECLS used it as an example in Feb 2013. In the Bell incident, the guy finally did give his ID to the cop. The cop handcuffed him anyway
The specific incident I’m interested in is http://www.kvue.com/news/local/Man-claims-trooper-assaulted-falsely-arrested-him-246228081.html . There was a routine traffic stop in front of an Austin window tint shop. Two men were sitting in a truck in the shop parking lot watching the uneventful stop in front of them. After the traffic stop, the DPS approached these two guys on private property and created an encounter. For all I know the guys on private property could of laughed at the DPS officers during the traffic stop in the street and the officers came over to “educate” them boys, but there is nothing indicating taunting on the audio. Things escalate and one guy was arrested for failure to ID and for good measure add resisting, both dropped later. My question, what was proven here?
Feb 26, 2014 @ 15:18:16
This was a false arrest from what I’m understanding and if the guys decided to sue under 1983 they would have a case (ACLU). Apparently false arrests are rampant. In NM police chief vowed to make some changes over this problem. IN DC a malicious prosecution case (ACLU) garnered almost 100k. It took them five years….Review SCOTUS case Atwater to see why they are so bold in arresting people.
Feb 27, 2014 @ 10:54:33
Here is my detainment/ arrest on vid. I added music…just for fun.
https://vimeo.com/87769802
Feb 27, 2014 @ 19:10:04
Do you have a clean copy? The music detracts from what is going on.
Feb 27, 2014 @ 20:22:06
It’s posted now
Feb 27, 2014 @ 19:52:59
try this link on utube-no music:
Feb 27, 2014 @ 20:17:38
OK, I could make that out.
If there was a city ordinance, then he had a lawful detention and could require ID if he were issuing a citation.
Metro officers are peace officers. See Tex. Code Crim. Proc. Ann. art. 2.12(22).
There is no state violation for ‘disobeying a peace officer.’
Feb 28, 2014 @ 07:41:33
No city ordinance on medians (Maine Fed Court just ruled banning medians unconstitutional in Portland), wrote me up for crosswalk violation (jaywalk). 1) determined to be an “intersection” by a traffic attorney 2) complaining officer did not witness the crime. He arrived when we were already standing on the median with our banner.
Feb 27, 2014 @ 14:38:43
there’s no way to witness a “failure”. The cops subjective impression of vocalized sounds is not a standard of evidence. How do “disclose” something that is always OPEN? A “name” is a psycho linguistic device, it’s anything or nothing at all. An address is a mail direction protocol, a birthdate a measurement convention. Which calendar? Hebrew, Chinese or Mayan? It becomes an idea comparison pissing contest.
This is like “failure to disclose my fingerprints”..Maybe the cops are empowered to look but not ENTITLED to some conceived notion of an outcome. This the real problem, the false sense of entitlement, along with cartoon thinking and random k-12 school assumptions.
Indeed then a 5th Amendment question- everything we say will be misconstrued against us and glossed up as incriminating evidence. There is no rational basis to require the utterance of meaningless gibberish.
Feb 28, 2014 @ 17:53:11
@ Liz Theiss (Feb 28, 2014 @ 07:41:33) (threading only goes so deep).
In most jurisdictions the officer can issue an information and belief citation, but cannot arrest for the offense unless he or she observed the offense.
For example, when tickets are issued at an accident scene, it is information and belief.
Mar 06, 2014 @ 09:46:24
RE; Cops not knowing or understanding the TX ID Law. It’s not just the cops in my case the lawyer at METRO legal believes pedestrians must carry an ID. Go figure.